Quality Posts
The Psychology of Men and Women
Kevin Solway
September, 2004
I have become somewhat of an expert on what women want, because I personally have never been able to offer it to them. From a very young age I went out of my way to make myself into a person I thought women would be interested in - though I grant this was only a side consequence of pursuing my own values. I would go out of my way to offer women what I think they should want. But all this never got me anywhere at all with women - and still never does.
I think women find me very boring - not that women actually talk to me long enough to make an informed judgement - because I always say exactly what I mean, and don't have any subtlety at all.
I am in fact extremely happy that I have managed to remain single, and I'm sure that my deep joy in being single has meant that in some way I have sabotaged my own romantic attempts with women. But I believe that the "sabotaging" has been perfectly valid.Sexually and emotionally I'm just attracted to young, beautiful, intelligent, deep-seeming girls. Most of them want men with careers, or at least jobs - as you would expect. But others are artist-types - and I have equally been a complete failure with them as well. Where I'm concerned, "first-base" never even gets on the radar!
Now a bit of an explanation: I have a profound dislike of "chance". It completely repulses me. And I have discovered that this has been the biggest hurdle between me as an individual, and women as a group. Because women love chance, and they cannot stomach things happening if not by chance, or so-called "naturally".
I know that women like it if they get to know a man by bumping into him from time to time in the street, or meeting by coincidence in unexpected places, or meeting through a mutual friend, or work, etc. I can't abide by all that at all. To me, leaving things to chance, or life circumstances, is extremely insulting, and is indeed an annihilation of everything in life that is worth living for. So if I meet a woman I'm interested in, I will either send her a letter (addressed to her first name only, if I know it, and sent to her work if necessary), or if I only know where she works, I will phone her at work. And I will explain how interested I am, and suggest a meeting over coffee. The object being to spend time together.
I have done this more times that I care to remember, but have never had any success so far. I generally don't get clear "rejections", as such, but I don't get any acceptances either. It is usually some kind of delaying technique, I surmise, to allow the dreaded "chance" to go to work. And if I were to "accidentally" bump into the girl on the street the next day, or if we met at a concert or suchlike, she would gladly allow me to buy her a coffee. But of course I despise chance, so the chance meetings generally don't happen.
I used to have a hard and fast rule that I would invite a girl out only once. And if she didn't accept, or didn't suggest other arrangements, then that was that. I considered this to be both noble and respectful. But sometimes I really, really, liked the girl. So I would discard my principles, and, truly believing myself to be both ignoble and disrespectful, I would ask the darling girl a second time. Unfortunately, there still wasn't any chance involved, so these second attempts always failed in just the same way as the first ones . . . just fell flat and died.
So, as I never get to talk to the women of my affections, "first base" might as well be a moon base, and a long, long way off.Objection: Women initiate contact with men all the time, although they do it far more often now than before.
Kevin: I believe this is a myth. Women may contact men within an existing framework that has been laid out, eg, the workplace, or dance classes where you have to dance with different partners, or a contact through friends, etc. But I don't believe women contact men through a "cold contact" (eg, seeing someone who looks interesting, eg, on a bus, then talking to them) any more than they used to.
Objection: But women attempt to attract men's notice all the time, which as far as I can see amounts to the same thing as asking for a date.Kevin: This may be the case, but such signals are rarely, if ever, clear. There was a period in my life were I would try to get to know waitresses, because I thought they were showing an interest in me! Duh!
I once established a very meaningful eye-contact with a girl sitting in an audience, and then found out that she was in fact looking at the fellow sitting alongside me!
In any case, the "notice-seeking" is definitely not the same as asking for a date, because by the time the man asks for a date (let's say it takes a fellow 2 days and a stiff drink to build-up the courage), the girl may have already found herself another boyfriend, and not be interested.
Also, it is easy for a girl to deny the "notice-seeking" if she chooses to, even if she really was seeking the attention, whereas a written invitation to coffee cannot be denied.
In summary, "notice-seeking" is virtually nothing at all.
Objection: And if you think women don't feel pain and disappointment over men, you are really in your own world.Kevin: I don't deny that women feel pain. Some of the women whom I have asked out in the past burst into tears whenever they see me. But they still won't talk to me. They're usually with a boyfriend at the time - although I doubt that is what is stopping them.
Women would feel a lot more pain and disappointment if they consciously and clearly put themselves on the line, and were then rejected, like men commonly contend with, instead of the vague, easily denied "notice seeking".
Objection: : . . . simply not rejecting you is a positive sign you should follow up on.Kevin: Yes, from the woman's perspective, doing nothing is a positive sign. But really, it's doing nothing. It's a bit like when you go to shake someone's hand, and it feels like a limp fish. I know that most men are happy enough with this state of affairs, as, in the end, their persistence, and "chance" meetings, etc, will eventually pay off, so long as the efforts of other men don't succeed first. But for me, if I give out something, a very precious something, which disappears into a bottomless void, which is similarly absorbing countless other somethings, then it is time to stop, for the sake of dignity at least.
Objection: They only despise you for being weakKevin: I remember once I approached a girl - didn't have any choice as I adored her - and I was so trembling with fear that my voice collapsed and I could barely speak. She must have truly despised me after that! Never got to talk to her either.
Objection: Women are not necessarily restricted to "chance" or other "safe" encounters, it is simply that these safe encounters offer a security that is essential. Most men are not like you. Most men are like women. And the large majority of men who approach women outside of the parameters of "chance/safety" have less than enlightened intent; sometimes, though rare, even dangerous intent.
. . . When befriending an animal in the wild, you spend time sitting near it, looking away. Sometimes you leave little treats. It may takes weeks, months, or years. Your presence is felt but it is not overwhelming or imposing.
Kevin: Yes, I think you've hit the nail on the head. The main reason I'm not able to convince a woman to talk to me (say, over coffee) is because they don't know me well enough. And I haven't gone through the "befriending the animal in the wild" stages beforehand. And frankly, I just couldn't be bothered, as it feels like way too much work.
Years ago, in my "waitress hunting" days, I used to attempt this groundwork, but it was very time consuming, and expensive, as I would spend many hours sitting in cafes. Sometimes, after several weeks of painstakingly edging closer to a girl, so as not to scare them, I would put the "hard word" on her about meeting her after work (or suchlike), and she would tell me that she couldn't because she just got a new boyfriend the day before!
Since those days, I skip all the expensive groundwork - which is not my ground - and cut to the chase. But it doesn't work for the reason you mentioned.
A man has to become part of a woman's environment first, and infuse himself into her through osmosis, before she will feel comfortable with him - like one does with an animal in the wild. But this process is really exactly the same as rape, since it is a kind of penetration without the conscious approval of the woman. That's the main reason I have never been comfortable with it. It's a bit like sneakily entering a premises through a rear window, like a criminal, instead of openly introducing yourself with a knock at the front door.
Importantly, the "gradual familiarity" method works just as well for bad men as it does for good ones. It is largely non-discriminatory. An animal in the wild will feel comfortable with any human in the environment, so long as that person takes his time to approach smoothly and gradually, and back-off temporarily when need be.
Objection: You're right that women like things to happen naturally. Keeping that in mind, everything you do which isn't natural and seems forced will only be rejected and will only frustrate you.Kevin: Everything I do is natural. My introductory letters (notes) are perfectly natural. That's the problem I'm trying to reveal through my writing on this subject - and I'm not explaining it very well so far. To women "natural" means "by chance" or "not conscious", or "by osmosis".
To a woman "forced" means "thought".
Objection: Lots of women throw themselves away, at least for a time, on men with no financial prospects, and lacking your gentlemanly and intellectual attributes. How do we account for this?
Kevin: Chance.
Objection: But why don't they take a chance on you?Kevin: What I mean is, they "throw themselves away" on men they have met by chance - eg, at the gym, or at work, etc. It is rarely that I meet women by chance. And if I do, I try to minimize the chance element, to make it more interesting and meaningful.
Objection: Why are you still so intrigued with girls? I think that is pathetic. You are a dirty old man.Kevin: I think most of it is explained by hormones. It's part of the human sex drive for men to prefer to mate with young, healthy females. And there are less complications/baggage if she is without a history.
The young woman has something significant to offer that the middle-aged woman does not - a blank canvas - which appeals to man's creative spirit.
Middle-aged women spend millions of dollars trying to look like teenagers, but no matter how much they spend, they can't trigger a man's idealistic streak as easily as a young woman.
Many older, experienced women, might be fine as companions, but many men don't want such a companion.
Despite the hormones, I am at least equally intrigued with trying to put the whole process into words, clearly explainable.The unfortunate crux of the matter is this: if a woman is a "blank slate", a purely reflective and unconscious mirror, then, in her, man is able to see a reflection of himself - of his higher self. A reflection of Nature itself. And that, he finds attractive. If, on the other hand, woman were a conscious, active being like himself, he would respect her as he would any other conscious, active being. But if she is a soiled, roughed-up, mirror, which doesn't reflect anything, then she won't look so beautiful to him.
Of course, ideally "beauty" shouldn't come into it, and a person should work only for the survival of truth, consciousness and wisdom. That is the only moral behaviour, and is what I strive for.Objection: You were never dissatisfied with women as they are, but only disappointed that you did not snag one when you were young. To manage your disappointment, you've developed an elaborate scenario to explain why they do not see you as you see yourself.
Kevin: Interesting idea, but I think all the evidence is in favour of my theory. I'm only drawing on my own life experiences because it's easiest for me to do that. But when I study the life experiences of others, I see that their experiences of women are the same as mine. Of course, most men are more popular with women, but they are giving women what they want. Any man can be popular with women if he makes himself a part of their environment, flatters them, makes them laugh, and perhaps buys them things.
What it boils down to, is that if anything is to happen, a man, generally, makes it happen. A woman will fall in love with whatever is in her environment - no matter whether it is good or bad. So the general rule is, a man consciously puts himself in a woman's environment, and the result is that she falls in love with him.
In a zoo, if you want two animals to mate, you simply put the two together in the same cage.
In the case of men and women, the man is the zookeeper, and he puts himself in the cage with the female he desires. The woman doesn't exercise this same choice.
A woman generally doesn't go out of her environment, into a strange environment, to seek to procure a particular sought-for object. This is the work of pioneers and prospecters.
Objection: There may yet be another reason, which may explain Kevin's sexual attraction to young, beautiful, intelligent, deep-seeming females, rather than young, beautiful, intelligent, deep males.Kevin: I think it boils down to wanting to take a holiday from one's self (imperfect and therefore struggling) to an illusory perfect version of oneself. And a woman who appears to be a feminine version of oneself can appear that way. Such a woman has enough "thinking" characteristics to appear masculine, and enough feminine characteristics to allow the illusion of perfection - the illusion of the stillness and strength of perfection.
Anyone who seeks perfection will become attached to perfection to some degree, since they have not reached perfection. And to the degree that they have that attachment it leaves them vulnerable. They will long and grasp for perfection, and for some relief, the illusion of it.
The ego/delusion continues through habitual thought pathways - even though you know better. A pathway through the forest takes a long time to overgrow, especially if you continue to use it sometimes. Only when the "higher self" becomes the whole of oneself will there cease to be any struggle. So long as there is struggle, there will be falls.
Mind you, so long as one is suffering, one is not being entirely rational. And as long as one is not entirely rational, one is prone to seeking relief in illusions - and that is the slippery slope.Personally I have found that it is easier to keep it as simple as possible. And so rather than value many things, I consider that the only thing I value is Truth. And it helps to think only about the end goal - ie, what is ultimately real (the Infinite), rather than all manner of reasons why this is the case for every individual situation. That which is ultimately real is the same in all circumstances, so one doesn't need to jump through hoops every time to get there. With time, you get faith that you can jump straight to the conclusion, as you have reasoned it through a million times before.
Why is something as it is? Causes. That's all you really need to know. But you really need to know that "causes" intimately, as your own being. Not the individual causes, but the totality of it. To see it and feel it as yourself.
This method is like seeing through correct pair of spectacles, rather than seeing through a distorted pair of spectacles and then having to analyse-out the distortions.
It works most of the time!
Murdering women's souls for sexual pleasure
David Quinn
The question needs to be asked as to why men constantly need to praise to the skies women's multi-knobbed nature. It can't be for intellectual reasons. Women very rarely produce anything of intellectual interest. Whatever thoughts that a woman expresses, it can be guaranteed that they have already been expressed in a far more powerful and interesting manner by men. Women only echo, in a far more diluted way, things they have heard from others or read about in a book. As such, only the most dull-witted of men could possibly find women intellectually stimulating.
It can't be for entertainment reasons. If you take away all of the sexual/whorish elements from a woman's behaviour, what do you have left? Someone who oscillates between juvenile inanity and matronly boorishness. The only thing that stops these behaviourisms from being unbearably tedious is the infusion of the sexual element. A woman gains her charm through the combination of sexuality and juvenility/motherliness/intellectual echoing. Without the sexual component, only the most lifeless of men, those who have absolutely no inner life to them at all, would find delight in women and give them the time of day. This is why old women are the most ignored class of people in society the world over.
Thus, the constant praise of women's multi-knobbed (i.e. her multi-faceted, incoherent, all-over-the-place, flowy) kind of behaviour ultimately comes from men's sexual desire. Men constantly praise women and defer to their banal concerns because they want to remain in their good books, and thus keep the possibility open for future sexual relations. They might not want to bonk every woman they meet - indeed, they might only want to bonk one or two of them out of the entire species - but they still continue to pour out the praise on all women regardless. For they subconsciously know that all women are just manifestations of the one entity - WOMAN - and that you cannot really praise one woman without praising all of them, just as you cannot disparage one of them without disparaging all of them.
The trouble with constantly praising women for their multi-faceted, incoherent, all-over-the-place, flowy behaviour is that it discourages them from developing a penetrative, coherent, consistent form of consciousness which is needed to make philosophical and spiritual progress. Hence, my beef with Thomas Knierim's misogynistic worship of women. I tell you truly, if women suddenly decided that they were going to make every effort to become Buddhas, he and his sixteen dogs would be horrified.
September, 2004
Forum member: ..... this is particularly the reason why girls go to clubs and get drunk, then end up having sex with someone they wouldn't while sober.
Foxylaythee: I've done that, more than once if you really want to know the truth! But in my case I think the reason was different. Actually there were two situations I remember, the first was on a dare from one of my friends, a female friend, we were in a club dancing and drinking at the time, she pointed out some guy at the end of the bar, I said sure I'll take you up on it, so long as you buy me drinks every time we go out the rest of the month! She agreed and I went for it. I admit the alcohol made it much easier to approach the man, but I think that's true for both men and women, isn't it?
The other situation I'm embarrassed to say, I was just extremely horny! I hadn't had a boyfriend for almost two weeks and I needed satisfying. I realized that the alcohol would provide all the excuse I needed for my slutty behaviour. If a woman is drunk almost anything is forgivable, her reputation is not really effected if she slips up on occasion so long as she's totally smashed, especially at weddings or a house party. If she goes to bed with a guy she normally would reject its often because she secretly admires that guy but can't admit it to anyone, the guy may have a bad reputation or some other reason why all the better girls always ignore him, or she may be very curious about him, and even though the she can easily control herself even when drunk as a skunk and go home alone, she knows the drinking will provide all the excuse she needs to get away with it. She knows people or men believe that since she's just a drunk woman there is no way she could help it, so they forgive her and forget it, but the truth is very different. Now you know! In my case, if one of my girlfriend's ever brings it up to hurt me I just have to blame the drinks and I'm off the hook. I've never slept with a man I wouldn't sleep with if I were sober. The only difference is when drunk women are allowed to sleep with some other men that they ordinarily can't even talk to, not without paying some future price. Women would behave much differently if there was little or no possibility of being seen, if no one who knows them is aware of what they're up to, just like many men! That's why they go off to Latin countries get drunk and go wild, but awareness of what they're doing is always there.
Kevin Solway: That's the whole point. Women do not initiate contacts (or anything) because of fear - or lack of interest. This is because of women's mental and physical vulnerability, which is biological.
Foxylaythee: Well I think I've disproven that myth already. Sure women are weaker physically and therefore must be more cautious, but this handicap is the very reason why women have developed superior minds, in some respects. Superior judgment. If a woman sees you on a bus, her mind processes much more than an ordinary man's mind, she sees the possibility from many more perspectives, she's aware of many more consequences of her actions, many more parameters, therefore she can determine more accurately what are the chances and whether it's worth it, whether the effort is worth the possible return. And more often than not, initiating a conversation with a strange man for the purpose of developing a meaningful long term relationship is, in her superior judgment, a terrible idea, not worth it. But this is something most men just can't see, and it's because men are not aware of all that she is aware of, related to her life and present circumstances.
Kevin Solway: One can tell a lot about a person just by watching them over a short period of time. One doesn't have to wait for that person to enrol in one of the clubs one is a member of to know whether you want to know them . . . unless one is either paralysed by fear, or lacking any interest in the interesting.
Foxylaythee: The more you say the more you reveal your ignorance of women. But don't feel bad, we planned it that way. What you know is all we allow you to know. Normally.
David Quinn: It's odd, then, that many women continue to make such bad choices when it comes to their boyfriends and husbands, and end up getting hitched with a loser they hate.
Foxylaythee: Everyone makes bad choices. And in break-ups the feelings are usually mutual, the men hate too you know, so the men are as bad as the women at selecting mates!
What you're missing is, things change, women know this. Women know their prince may someday turn into a toad, often due to reasons beyond his control. Women know their men might someday flop. That's why they often have a backup, it's intelligent to do so, it shows more awareness, not less. At the time she made her choice, it was a good choice. But things change, don't you know? People loose jobs, people loose their minds, people break, people change their attitudes. I have never regretted my choice in men, but I know when to get out. I'm not stupid enough to think a relationship will last forever, most women have tossed out this dream long ago, though they keep you men believing otherwise.
You will never truly understand a woman until you enter a woman's mind. This is as close as you'll ever get.
Kevin Solway: Yes, I think you've hit the nail on the head. The main reason I'm not able to convince a woman to talk to me (say, over coffee) is because they don't know me well enough. And I haven't gone through the "befriending the animal in the wild" stages beforehand. And frankly, I just couldn't be bothered, as it feels like way too much work.
Foxylaythee: Yes, it can be too much work, if you go about it wrong. And that's what you did.
Kevin Solway: Years ago, in my "waitress hunting" days, I used to attempt this groundwork, but it was very time consuming, and expensive, as I would spend many hours sitting in cafes. Sometimes, after several weeks of painstakingly edging closer to a girl, so as not to scare them, I would put the "hard word" on her about meeting her after work (or suchlike), and she would tell me that she couldn't because she just got a new boyfriend the day before!
Foxylaythee: I m not at all surprised, judging from your approach. You freaked her out, plain and simple. You made her feel like prey, that you would hurt her not love her. What you describe sounds more like a tiger stalking antelope than a man courting a woman.
Did you manage to get close enough to hear this conversation with her supervisor? "Fred, this strange guy has been in here many times last few weeks, sits way over there by the window normally, I keep catching him getting a look at me but when I do he quickly looks away. While serving him he seemed totally indifferent to me, staring out the window while I talk to him, giving one word answers to my questions, I know nothing about him, do you?"
"No doll, can't say I know him, though I've seen him myself, always sitting there all alone, hasn't he got any friends, or a job? Seems not, poor old sap. Just let him alone if he bothers you, let Sally take care of him, ok sweetheart."
"Ok, thanks. Sure seems to have nothing to do, he never spends much either, and tips only pennies, no wonder he's got no one. Problem is, Fred, lately his attitude has changed, and I don't know what to do. Now he's sitting up at the counter, and asking me personal questions. I keep sending Sally over to serve him but he's either not picking up on the hint or refuses to take no as an answer, Sally tells me his eyes are constantly on me, and if I look over at him now he's smiling back at me! I wouldn't have minded if he just sat up here and was friendly from the start, but the way he edged his way over to me first ignoring me and now always looking at me, well this is making me really uncomfortable. I don't know exactly what his problem is, but whatever it is I'm not interested. He has no job, no friends, too much time on his hands, a weird attitude, he's cheap, smells, has this huge beard, for all I know he was just released from prison! Next time he comes in I'm staying out back 'till he's gone."
Kevin Solway: A man has to become part of a woman's environment first, and infuse himself into her through osmosis, before she will feel comfortable with him - like one does with an animal in the wild. But this process is really exactly the same as rape, since it is a kind of penetration without the conscious approval of the woman. That's the main reason I have never been comfortable with it. It's a bit like sneakily entering a premises through a rear window, like a criminal, instead of openly introducing yourself with a knock at the front door.
Foxylaythee: If you want to succeed with women, you're first going to have to accept responsibility for your mistakes and lack of skill. Stop blaming women for your failures, you only do this because you can't bear the pain of the truth. You're a man, and all men have overblown egos, so they can't admit they need help. I once had a boyfriend who refused to ask for directions whenever we went on a trip in unfamiliar territory, its drove me crazy. You're just like him.
It may console you to believe your failures with women are due to your incredible goodness, but how long can you keep this up, lying to yourself? Better to admit that you are at least part of the problem and then try new approaches.
Becoming friends with a woman is not anything like rape. You like this comparison because it makes you feel like you're a nice guy. But does a woman have a choice in rape? Can she say no? Most importantly, can she stop you? The answer is no. But your waitress can at any time get assistance, can even have the police remove or threaten you. She's not unconscious of what you are doing, every move you make is permitted by her, acceptable to her, even desires by her.
First of all a woman is not a wild animal. Unlike a wild animal, such as an ape, a woman realizes that any strange man may pose a threat no matter how sweet he seems or whatever his technique. You may fool an ape into believing that you're totally harmless, but not a woman.
At all times you are being tested by the woman. If you are successful with her then she can reasonably conclude that you may be a good mate, because you have what it takes to succeed, first with her, then with others. The more friends you make, the more secure your wife will be. If you can persuade her to accept you, maybe you can also persuade someone to hire you, or someone to lend you money, or succeed at any number of things, all of which will benefit your wife. So the process is very important to the woman, and if you have to tell a few lies to win her, so be it, no big deal so long as you get the job done. She will admire you for it. That's why you have to work at it.
Kevin Solway: Importantly, the "gradual familiarity" method works just as well for bad men as it does for good ones. It is largely non-discriminatory. An animal in the wild will feel comfortable with any human in the environment, so long as that person takes his time to approach smoothly and gradually, and back-off temporarily when need be.
Foxylaythee: To women there are no "bad" men and "good" men. Behaviour is bad and good, not people. Any man can be "bad". An animal accepts things that don't look like anything that has disturbed them in the past. Women never forget that any man can be a problem, but try to give anyone a fair chance.
Women know they can make men bad and good without much trouble.
I hope this helps. Don't feel bad, just treat women nice and they will appreciate you. It's terrible to be alone all the time, don't loose heart.
Kevin Solway: What it boils down to, is that if anything is to happen, a man, generally, makes it happen.
Foxylaythee: What it boils down to, is that a woman realizes that more often than not she has better luck allowing/making men approach her than the other way around, but that all options are open to her, though it's to her advantage to appear fearful, disinterested, and unconscious.
Kevin Solway: A woman will fall in love with whatever is in her environment - no matter whether it is good or bad. So the general rule is, a man consciously puts himself in a woman's environment, and the result is that she falls in love with him.
Foxylaythee: Actually, the general rule is, a woman will fall in love with whatever she permits to enter her environment, and the deeper she permits the greater her love. If no one attractive enters she tries elsewhere, or employs a less passive method.
***
David Quinn: I know you like to think that you are imparting secret revelations about the female mind to us klutzes on this board, but really, what you've said so far is very well-known and obvious. Any male over 20 who has had some dealings with women would be completely familiar with your "revelations" so far.
Foxylaythee: Is that right? If this is really true I must say, they're doing an awesome job hiding it! In particular the man who began this thread, you would never guess he was some sort of expert. But if you say so!
I think it's amazing how you know all about what everyone else here knows or doesn't know. Are you some kind of mind reader or something? Ha, ha!
No, I think the truth is you and some others simply want to appear as experts on women, to help sell your books or something. If you're truly being honest, and I doubt you are, it may be that you're not even aware of your lacking, because I explained clearly where men go wrong with women, but you claim to learn nothing new. Whatever the case my original intention was to help the writer of the love manual succeed with women, but I think I shocked him so terribly that his hands are all locked up! Maybe he is learning from me, a woman, but like most men can't bring himself to admit it. So for him I will continue to enlighten, but I hope he participates more, it's difficult to chart his progress and know how to advise him if he's too afraid to express himself.
David Quinn: Your comments reveal that: (a) Women hate being held accountable for their actions.
Foxylaythee: (This is tooo easy!)
Everyone hates that, both women and men. No one enjoys being caught messing up, or being punished or fined, everyone lies if it helps them to do so. And you call my ideas obvious!
David Quinn: Only when hiding behind the fog of alcohol, or in a crowd, or in the anonymity of a foreign country, does a woman have the "courage" to expose herself in any way.
Foxylaythee: Why can't you get this? How many times have I got to spell this out for you? It's not courageous to overlook something that may be harmful, it's just plain stupid. It's stupid not to protect yourself, it's stupid not courageous. Courage enters the picture when one can accurately assess the chance of succeeding, and when those chances are reasonable, not terrible. Women are far better than men are at determining accurately the level of risk involved, what is at stake, and the possible return. So what appears as a courageous act to a man is often times a dumb thing to do, but the man can't see this because he misjudges the extent of the consequences and the value of the risk. And we just love him for it!
David Quinn: Being judged negatively by others is their worst nightmare, and it shapes and restricts everything they do. It is why there is so little female genius in the world.
Foxylaythee: Really? Well women certainly try and succeed to give this impression, but at bottom we only care what others think in the sense that others can shape our future and have power to make it or break it. For instance, I could care less if some looser judges me negatively because his opinion will not effect my life, my future, but if the person is powerful or otherwise important to me then that can effect my happiness, my life my wealth my success in general.
David Quinn: (b) Women are very animalistic and lustful in their thinking and would happily express this far more often if they had but "permission" to do so from society. A woman doesn't do anything unless she gets "permission" from someone else.
Foxylaythee: I see where you're going with this.
No, that's not the all of it, not even close. The only reason this "permission" is desired is because without it there could be avoidable consequences. We like to appear like angels, it's to our advantage to do so. Why shouldn't a person do what will help her? Especially if that pleases others. Everyone enjoys being animal at times.
David Quinn: (c) Women do not have a conscience except when forced to have one through the judgments made by others. The moral values of a woman are always inserted into her mind from men and general society, and do not come from her own ethical insight.
Foxylaythee: If women go along with this scheme it is because they have more to gain in doing so. We all do what gains us, what makes us more prosperous, knowledgeable, powerful, men and women alike. The big difference is in the judgment. In my experience men's judgment is short sighted, they don't consider long term consequences as well as women do, so they end up in jail more often, or dead, and otherwise loose favouritism in society. There's much to gain in cooperation with society. I'm sure many men regret the so-called courageous decisions they made, later realizing they were dumb choices, and that their ego's need to appear as winners and heroes ruined their lives, and whatever seemed a huge gain at the time turns out to go down in history as a minor achievement that no one no longer cares about. But again, that foolishness is why we love them!
David Quinn: (d) Women must think men are complete fools by creating such a flimsy ruse that if they get smashed on alcohol they can do anything they like and not be held accountable for it.
Foxylaythee: Now you're getting it!
David Quinn: The only reason they get away with it is because many men themselves are extremely animalistic and lustful, and desire nothing more than to get into these women's pants. It is men thinking with their dicks which is the main oppressor of women in society. That is ultimately what keeps them down.
Foxylaythee: Down is good. Humble people enjoy better lives. You are saying nothing here. You're just a typical man, out-foxed by the women in your life. It's a wonder so many men like being men, what a huge disadvantage. We sometimes feel sorry for you, but then we didn't make the world what it is.
David Quinn: When men make these mistakes it is somewhat excusable because relationships are not their forte. Men are too busy thinking about their careers, or their hobbies, or sport, to give much thought to the intricacies of a relationship and finding a proper partner which suits hem. All they basically want is a wife who won't hassle them too much, is willing give them sex at regular intervals and has the grace to leave them alone for the rest of the time.
But it's an entirely different matter with women. Since women spend almost their entire lives thinking about men, relationships and sex, making such a god-awful mistake as choosing the wrong man for a husband is simply inexcusable. It would be like an engineer, who despite devoting his every waking moment towards thinking about the nuts and bolts of construction, designing a bridge so poorly that it collapses within months of its opening. It's gross incompetence.
Foxylaythee: I'll agree with that.
***
Foxylaythee: What you're missing is, things change, women know this. Women know their prince may someday turn into a toad, often due to reasons beyond his control. Women know their men might someday flop. That's why they often have a backup, it's intelligent to do so, it shows more awareness, not less. At the time she made her choice, it was a good choice. But things change, don't you know? People loose jobs, people loose their minds, people break, people change their attitudes. I have never regretted my choice in men, but I know when to get out. I'm not stupid enough to think a relationship will last forever, most women have tossed out this dream long ago, though they keep you men believing otherwise.
David Quinn: That's certainly a factor, but I think there is more to it than this. If women are supposed to be so conscious and intelligent about their relationships, then by rights, they should be able to read their prospective husband's character and judge what he will be like in a few years time. If they can't do that, then the question needs to be asked: what can they do? In what other ways are they directing their "highly conscious intelligence"?
In my experience, women don't really know how to read a man's character at all. The reason for this is that their minds are too dominated by their fluctuating mood swings, which in turn are triggered by their emotions, hormones and chemistry.
Foxylaythee: Women can read much about a man, maybe not everything but at least those things important to her, that will impact her life. For instance, many women like a man who will sacrifice himself for his wife, children and country. And more often than not they can pick these guys out easily enough. There are plenty of them. And women can spot them easily.
David Quinn: Studies have shown that what women consider to be an "attractive man" varies depending on what time of the month it is. During their menstruating phase, for example, they tend to prefer Rambo types - that is, powerful macho men who can physically rough them up. In other parts of the cycle, however, they prefer more effeminate-looking men, such as Kaneau Reeves, men who are very woman-like and willing to pander to the whims and values of women. I dare say that there are many variations of this cycle as well. It is probably the case that women go through a whole variety of different phases every day, and as a result, their judgment as to what constitutes an "attractive man" is constantly changing. This would make it very difficult for a woman to make sound judgments in these matters.
Foxylaythee: Again, all this data represents is what woman want men to know about them. There is more truth there than they're willing to reveal, and that missing information can make the results or conclusions very different. The truth is, well, some of it is, and what you are obviously not seeing though you like to tell yourself you see all, that women possess the ability to choose among these "phases" at will, and their lack of control is an illusion you are supposed to accept as fact. Women can choose to fluctuate or they can choose not to, simply by concentrating on whatever the circumstances require. Women are faced with many different situations daily, and must be able to respond to various types, from the saint to the sinner, from the risky stranger to her own children. She can see each with the eyes necessary to best deal with whatever confronts her. Sure hormones can be a problem, but ordinarily women can rise above this, though it always pays to keep you guys believing otherwise!
The picture you have of women is very much designed by them.
David Quinn: I realize that women can be very cunning in their everyday life. For example, they can turn on the tears if they think it will give them an advantage. But really, this a very minor form of control, and symptomatic of a passive, impotent existence. Instead of directly taking control of things in the external world, they instead try to take control of their own emotional responses. It's nothing to crow about.
Foxylaythee: That's because you're thinking like a man, you can't break out of it, you don't understand women, or more accurately, you're not aware of all women are aware of. What is trivial to you is very significant to girls, women. Men can't see the value in woman's approach and behaviours because men are stuck seeing things from a different perspective. Personally, we at times can't fathom why men think and act as they do in some situations, but we're used to their insanity and use it to our advantage. We're superior for this. Just think about it, women effectively control men and the men practically no idea what's going on! If that isn't superiority then please tell me what is.
David Quinn: Let me ask you something. If women are so intelligent, conscious and in control of themselves, as you say they are, then why have they allowed men to run the world and restrict women into having miserable, limited lives?
Foxylaythee: Miserable lives? There you go again, thinking like a man. I'm beginning to think men are even dumber than I originally thought! Even if you spell it out for them, they still can't grasp it. They're so stuck in their tunnel vision that the situation is hopeless. So we don't feel like criminals for working them as we do, as far as women are concerned men need us more than they need air and water, to be somewhat happy, and since they're permanently retarded we haven't much choice but to treat them that way, for the good of all. So to answer your question, No, compared to most men women don't really think they live limited, miserable lives, some do but not most. As far as women are concerned, it is not the men but the women who control the world, just like in a war, its not the men but the commander who controls things. You have to be in a woman's shoes to understand, from here we see mentally ill males all around us, stronger than we are, they easily can kill and do all sorts of horrible things, its just amazing! And also frightening, so women have no choice but to manage men as they do, and since we're in the business of managing men, we may as well get the most out of them along the way, that is, so long as they don't notice and complain too much. We discovered long ago if managed properly, men can do all sorts of great things. Sure, we let them believe they're in control, but that's just an illusion. It's much truer to say woman are in control, because we have the good sense to make the most of what God has provided, and we do it with as little effort and expense as possible. We're not at all "impotent". But it's important for men to believe it! And fortunately, they do.
If that isn't superiority then please tell me what is.
David Quinn: Well, I may be peculiar, but I would call someone "superior" if they were intellectually and ethically advanced, if they possessed some spiritual genius. I rate the person who comprehends the nature of Reality and upholds the ideal of truth in the face of the world's opposition far more highly than I do the woman who emotionally and sexually manipulates others for her own personal gain. But that's just me.
Foxylaythee: Truth? In an ideal world, sure, it would be great if we all could be truthful, but what do you think would happen to women if they suddenly began telling men how they truly feel and think about Reality, and about them? It's way too Petergereous! If it weren t for the fact that I can hide my identity here I wouldn't dare to speak as plainly as I have. Besides, at best it would be a complete waste of time, since men's insanity would prevent them from understanding that insanity, so nothing would change.
***
David Quinn: Let me ask you something. If women are so intelligent, conscious and in control of themselves, as you say they are, then why have they allowed men to run the world and restrict women into having miserable, limited lives?
Foxylaythee: Miserable lives? There you go again, thinking like a man.
David Quinn: No, I was thinking like a feminist. You obviously disagree with the basic feminist view that women have been oppressed for thousands of years by a patriarchal society.
Foxylaythee: Not only I, but most women I know! Women allow that myth to exist because it's ultimately a good thing, for women first and then for those who depend so highly on them, you guys. Anything that helps keep men feeling they ought to treat women better is a good thing, don't you think?
As far as women are concerned, it is not the men but the women who control the world, just like in a war, its not the men but the commander who controls things.
David Quinn: I agree with you, but this is very much as odds with the current views of most women, who have been conditioned by modern feminism.
Foxylaythee: Maybe as youngsters they go for that, but as women mature and experience the world they soon discover how much power they really have. Again, it would not be constructive to change this perception. Everyone would suffer for it.
David Quinn: I agree that men are constantly being taken in by the women in their lives and they are extremely foolish for doing so.Foxylaythee: Well, I wouldn't go that far. I think men are better off this way, many are happy with their lives and wouldn't trade it for the world. And those that aren't can always consider becoming a woman themselves.
It's much easier than trying to become a man!
***
Forum Member: Seriously though, women don't have as much control as some of them like to DEFENSIVELY argue. What's the most incredulous thing you've ever manipulated a man to do? Buy you flowers? Ditch his friends, so that he could hopefully fuck you (and leave you right afterwards)? At the base of it, men could give a rat's ass about women. Women haven't consciously thought up ways to control men, either, it just happened naturally. It's our mothers faults. We should've never listened to them talk of love and how to treat a woman.
Foxylaythee: I can see we have you fooled too! Actually, women put a lot of time into thinking about how to succeed with men. And that's another fallacy, that only men enjoy casual sex. Sure, a gal may bitch about being dumped by inconsiderate, sex-crazed men, but usually that's to obtain better treatment from the man or men currently in her life, and not because she was scared by that previous experience.
She also says it to gain sympathy. Truth is she's as likely to fuck and dump as any guy is!
Forum Member: What's the most significant thing a woman has manipulated a man to do? Earn money and support her? That's horrible! I can't fathom the power women have!! They must be little goddesses running about the earth wearing makeup and getting weak in the knees when hot guys walk by them!
Foxylaythee: You must be joking. Have you any idea how many men have been duped into giving away their very lives for the women they love? Shit, even now in Iraq over 1,000 otherwise intelligent young US men have thrown their lives away for their mothers and sweethearts safety. And that's just a small sample. Not to mention all the suffering they've had to endure.
Forum Member: Your argument has little truth in it. I've seen household dads. I've seen women in relationships where men beat them into submission, and even the children she bore. I've seen societies like in Iran, I think it is, where women's desires are simply disregarded (which may be good, considering the fact that A- women are animalistic and lack an innate moral framework and B- as you say, women manipulate men).
Foxylaythee: Well I've never been to Iraq, but in more civilized parts of the world certainly women call the shots and live better lives. Sure, a small minority does get beat and abused by their husbands, but there is much a woman can do to escape this. And the ones who stay often secretly enjoy getting roughed up, as I understand it helps them feel loved and wanted, and provides the discipline that was lacking when they were just kids. To each his, her own, I say!
Forum Member: It's seriously almost not even worth replying to. I think I've said it before - what you're arguing is like a dog that pities its master for having the mental capacity to conceptualize. The dog will play little tricks which cause the master to do things for it, like licking the master's hand until he gets petted...so cunning!
But in the end, humans dominate dogs, and men dominate women.
Foxylaythee: We're very glad you think so!
Forum Member: If it wasn t for mans great desire to fuck, combined with the masculine instinct to compete for resources, women would have no say in anything. Men let women control a lot of the home life because it is not their interest not much satisfaction competing against women, except in playful mental games, so we just let them run around being busy bees and swat them or leave them when they get too annoying.
Foxylaythee: Well sure, most men adore women and love to sleep with them. But there are a fair amount of men out there that don't find women sexually attractive, like gays, so we know its possible for men to loose interest in women, and we wouldn't want that now would we! Women love sex and do all they can to keep heterosexual men stimulated and wanting. Where do you live? Have you noticed how horny men are these days? That's because we're always teasing men with our dress and flirting. Have you noticed what some men are willing to do just to get laid? Do you watch TV? Some girls make men do fun tricks like pet dogs just to get some. Men are rarely getting as much sex as they would like, which is perfect as far as women are concerned. In this way whenever a girl is ready and wanting, she can just about be sure to find it without much delay. Girls simply hate to have to wait for anything anymore, especially sex. We want our men to be ready and full of energy, that way they do most of the work, and if I may say so myself, do it just beautifully!
So sure, men let women have a say in order to get laid, but the reason men want to get laid in the first place is in large part woman's design, for her pleasure and so she can bear children, which will provide company well after the honeymoon is over.
***
Kevin Solway: I have a profound dislike of "chance". It completely repulses me. And I have discovered that this has been the biggest hurdle between me as an individual, and women as a group. Because women love chance, and they cannot stomach things happening if not by chance, or so-called "naturally".
I know that women like it if they get to know a man by bumping into him from time to time in the street, or meeting by coincidence in unexpected places, or meeting through a mutual friend, or work, etc. I can't abide by all that at all. To me, leaving things to chance, or life circumstances, is extremely insulting, and is indeed an annihilation of everything in life that is worth living for. So if I meet a woman I'm interested in, I will either send her a letter (addressed to her first name only, if I know it, and sent to her work if necessary), or if I only know where she works, I will phone her at work. And I will explain how interested I am, and suggest a meeting over coffee. The object being to spend time together.
I have done this more times that I care to remember, but have never had any success so far. I generally don't get clear "rejections", as such, but I don't get any acceptances either. It is usually some kind of delaying technique, I surmise, to allow the dreaded "chance" to go to work. And if I were to "accidentally" bump into the girl on the street the next day, or if we met at a concert or suchlike, she would gladly allow me to buy her a coffee. But of course I despise chance, so the chance meetings generally don't happen.Foxylaythee: Kevin has disappeared, but just in case he's watching I'm going to respond to his "chance" theory in women.
First of all, we're all human beings, we all have egos, and we all like to be right. When we come up with a theory we sometimes become blind to the other factors involved. We want everything to point to our theory and our theory alone as the reason for a particular behaviour. This is exactly what has happened here. The author of the Manual of Love has underestimated women, since doing so is essential to the validity of his theory, and in so doing is unwilling to uncover the many other factors explaining women's behaviour.I mentioned many of these possibilities already, fully conscious reasons designed to maximize benefit that may explain what appears to the author as purely fear-based behaviour.
However, there is in, I dare say, every woman the superstitious belief that "everything happens for a reason," so these chance meetings have a special value to us, the hand of God is involved, and since God's judgment can't be beat and God is good it may pay to let things happen without much interference on the woman's part. Just like the other possibilities, this one also has nothing to do with being afraid of acting consciously, fear doesn't enter the picture at all, unless the woman is loony and believes in devils or divine punishment.
So as far as I'm concerned the theory suggested by the book has not been shown to be the major factor explaining a woman's behaviour as relates to meeting men and dating. All the authors observations can be explained with other reasons. He hasn't said anything to prove his theory is true. Now what does that tell you?
In this way whenever a girl is ready and wanting, she can just about be sure to find it without much delay. Girls simply hate to have to wait for anything anymore, especially sex. We want our men to be ready and full of energy, that way they do most of the work, and if I may say so myself, do it just beautifully!
Forum Member: Hahaha! Foxy, I take it that you are quite young. Girls may have that advantage over men at a certain age when they look most beautiful. But, beauty is ephemeral. It withers quickly. In the end, the advantage is with the men. I know enough men in their fifties who've taken a nice young girl once their first wife passed expiry date. Is this perhaps grossly selfish? It surely is. But that's the way of the world. If you act selfish, expect to be treated the same way.
Foxylaythee: You don't see much of this anymore, old guys with young girls, it's very much frowned upon in places like the US. Men can't get away with it here, you must be talking about Asia or something. Sure, there men can try to even the score with women, but all things considered I think it's still more advantageous to be a woman in this world.
First of all women who take an older man aren't really missing much. Chances are these men aren't meeting all their needs, in bed or otherwise, so they usually have younger boyfriends and meet them while their older boyfriends and husbands are at work. Plus these girls like having an older boyfriend, he gives them that fatherly feeling we like so much, and since we weren t lucky enough to be able to sleep with our real daddy's, well, most of us weren t, we can sort of finally et that experience with older men. I think it's common knowledge that girls fantasize about sleeping with their dads, but in this day and age men are too afraid to risk it so this fantasy never becomes realized for most girls. But when they get older it's cool to have that older man, and we can sort of pretend we are still girls when with him and finally feel what we for so long longed for. Until that time most of the older men are managed and owned by the older woman, our moms, who incidentally can get pretty angry if we younger girls take one of their guys. Out moms are not like the women of the past who were content enough with going without once their beauty fades, no, my mom gets even more than I do it seems, and she's got a drawer full of toys, you wouldn't believe it! But one thing is when one of her boyfriends notices me I've got to pretend I have no interest in him, otherwise he'll want me too and that will get me disowned for sure! But when I can get away with it I watch him and fantasize what it would be like. But it's really taboo to actually be seen with an older man, at least where I live it is, and we've got to constantly pretend they disgust us just to keep out moms satisfied.
The young girls manage their men, and the older ones manage theirs, that's how it works. I know this may be hard for a guy to believe, but that's really how it goes. I don't have to tell you what society will do to an older man if he tries to date a young girl. This is strongly enforced because older woman need it just as much as we do, and unfortunately it's difficult to get young studs when you look like a mother. The good news is, when I get older I don't have to go without like women in those Asian country's do. So long as I leave these older men be I can look forward to indulging later on in life. Of course, anything goes behind closed doors, and if you want to turn tricks there's always that option.
I don't know. I'd say even the older, less beautiful women have the upper hand. It's amazing how attractive a older woman can be to a really hard up guy, even the ugliest woman can manage to get some action. We really hot girls keep these guys stimulated, then out moms end up scoring. It's a pretty good arrangement, wouldn't you say?
Forum Member: A man who performs pet tricks for a girl is quite stupid in my opinion, because he is easily swayed into a mode where horniness overrides reason. Not a desirable quality for potential reproduction, wouldn't you think?Foxylaythee: But what choice has he got? If he embarrasses the girl by refusing she'll just dump him and get another, more submissive man. They're extremely easy to come by. Hard headed men, like maybe some of the guys here on this forum, end up having to jerk themselves off using pornography and sleeping with dolls, they will never get a real girl if they don't obey. My advice for guys who won't do tricks is find a fat, ugly older girl, then you'll have more control.
***
Foxylaythee: Of course. It's plain to see that women are every bit as intelligent as men. How else can you explain the progress of women in the civilized world, how much more satisfying our lives are, how much safer we are, how many more opportunities are open to us. I can't think of a better time and place to be a woman, and it all came about by woman's determination and natural power. Sure some men have helped improve things for us too, but again what choice did they have, they just love us too much to disappoint us.
David Quinn: Cunningly manipulating others for personal gain is the behaviour of an animal, not a human.
Foxylaythee: I can understand why you feel that way, being a man, but if you're willing to take a deeper look you may just see how wrong you are about women's motivation.
The first thing to keep in mind is the insanity of men, that basic nature that makes them do all kinds of horrible things, the same nature that caused them to make a mess of the world at a time when they had control and a chance to do something great. Now it's woman's turn to make a better world, not that we asked for the job but that the world needed us. The situation is not really as you suggest. Wise women act not only to get the most out of life but also to make a better life for their brothers and fathers, who we love very much despite their huge faults. Sure some extreme types hate men and could care less if men had a future, but I believe most women hope to make a better world for all people, all their children, male and female alike. Sure we tend to favour girls, just as men used to heavily favour boys, but that's only natural, and it makes perfect sense besides.***
Foxylaythee: It's plain to see that women are every bit as intelligent as men.
Forum Member: And yet they have produced so little work of genius.
Foxylaythee: Oh really? That's small stuff as compared to gaining control of our destiny and the world, which is a much more important achievement. What do you think, that the measure of the world is how many great books are in our libraries or how many great paintings are in our museums?
I think you've missed the forest for the trees.
Forum Member: Besides, how much control do you really have? I mean not over other people, but over your own feelings, desires, and expectations? Real control means controlling these things.
Foxylaythee: I'm not sure that anyone has much control there! We like what we like, only God knows why. Just try feeling good about moving to America, try to desire to dislike living in Thailand, and I think you'll understand what I mean!
***
Foxylaythee: How would you know what her attitude is, what she's really thinking and feeling? Many times I've complained about something when in actuality I was content for strategic reasons. It's better to have the man doubting sometimes, he is more inclined to try harder, to feel he's the source of the problem not me, when it comes to hitting we sometimes like roughing it up but want to keep it all in check, within limits, so we must sometimes suggest the limits of what we find comfortable have been exceeded, because the emotions are high and it's easy to loose control and over do it and we don't want to suffer anything permanent. Does that explain it better? Also since a man can never really understand a woman it would be a mistake to let him in on the full truth because he'll just misinterpret it and act improperly in the future which could result in exceeding limits again. Oh, there's also the business of wanting to make him feel he owes me, has wronged me and should try to make it up, and that I'm superior because of it. You have to remember women are working with a powerful, crazy animal and just like any wild animal it requires careful handling. The games are part of the handling and therefore necessary, even if ones motivation is not altogether selfish and self serving, manipulative. It's just plain necessary to treat men like the wild animals they are. To do otherwise would be very foolish. Can you see now why women are really wiser than guys? There are so many other examples
David Quinn: When they can break free of the downward pull of women, the sky's the limit.
Foxylaythee: Fat chance! Your girlfriends and mothers won't tell you, but I'll tell you and you're welcome to hate me for it, men have virtually no chance of escape, even the men who appear to only do because the right girl hasn't come along yet.
If they could get their hands on the woman of their dreams they d toss out their computer crutches, religion, beliefs, all of it just to keep her. Why do you suppose rich, handsome and straight men never become priests or gurus? Because they attract the most beautiful women. If they reject them it's just for show, or because they know another will come along, or because there's already one waiting in the wings, or because they have too much to loose with others watching, or because they're addicted to miss Most Downloadable and can't relate to a real live woman, or because they're experimenting with celibacy but it won't last long!
Our very happiness depends on men needing us. So don't hate us for that, it's Gods will.
***
Foxylaythee: This is a joy to behold for most women, two men pointing fingers at each other and arguing over women! Sure we love to feel wanted, important, the centre of attention, but far more importantly it keeps the men from grouping up against us. The last thing we want to see is men who really trust and care about each other, each man should always have an enemy or at least an adversary, a sports team seems to do the trick. Just so long as men continue to think the enemy always looks more like they do than their mothers and wives. In this case we can ask, what is the likelihood Michael Casanova will entrust counsellor Peterny with any more juicy titbits about his romantic exploits? Slim to none I'd say.
So what is the Tasmanian devil going to do now? Is he preparing his defence as we speak? Will he hush up, throw the covers over his head and wait until the smoke clears? Will he empty his quiver to the delight and or horror of dumbfounded list members? Not being American I tend to doubt it. His style seems more along the lines of, only respond if there is more to loose if you don't. However much these boys go on about having destroyed their egos, they sure are careful to protect their reputation, well, until something like this happens.
What can we say about Divulging Peterny? Is he pulling splinters while having 2x4's in his eyes? Probably. I think he should tell us all about his own sex life now, just to be fair. Or is he some sort of saint by comparison?
Maybe he's not chasing skits so fervently, if he truly isn't, because he's already got all the T&A he needs. Maybe he's got more money and can afford a regular trip to one of those legal hot houses down under. I'm shocked you think men loose it at 43. Is that what happened to you, Peterny? I'm so sorry. I'll have you know one of my closest friends is 57 years old yet still pleases as many women as he can get his hands on!
Well, I'm not going to pretend I want you guys to kiss and make up, instead I'll just say Thank You and keep up the good work.
***
Foxylaythee: The last thing we want to see is men who really trust and care about each other, each man should always have an enemy or at least an adversary, a sports team seems to do the trick.
Forum Member: What the hell are you harping on about? Are you really that small minded to interpret things that way? Are women really this bad?
Foxylaythee: Like a typical man you miss the point. We aren't bad at all, in fact we're extremely good, wonderful beings who love and care far more deeply than men can even comprehend. And it's precisely this reason why we do what we do, managing men, what that foolish Vilar calls "manipulation". How can you call us bad when we care so deeply about both our male and female children, siblings, spouses and parents? We do what we must do not only to survive in this Petergereous world but to keep the relative peace.
Men, I'm convinced, have certain inherent tendencies that can't be expelled and shouldn't be ignored, such as their competitive spirit and need to dominate. Obviously we don't want that aggression turned towards us so we try as much as possible to provide healthy outlet for it, sports and video games seem to work best. Very few men are hurt this way, and fewer still fatally. It sure beats war. But sometimes it does come to that and again that's no place for a woman, especially since we're so occupied with managing things at home.
The important thing to realize is our intentions are pure and not entirely self serving, and the most progressive men understand why we do and why it must be done, thank God there are more and more of them every day. The world will see in time how much better life is when the whole planet is cleaned up and improved. Sometimes sacrifices must be made to bring a plan to completion, it's not for nothing President Bush was chosen Time's man of the year. The world needs more leaders like GW Bush, in time more and more people will recognize his courage and genius.
***
Foxylaythee: Sure, a small minority does get beat and abused by their husbands, but there is much a woman can do to escape this. And the ones who stay often secretly enjoy getting roughed up, as I understand it helps them feel loved and wanted, and provides the discipline that was lacking when they were just kids. To each his, her own, I say!
Hywel: By "I understand", do you mean that "you have heard", or do you mean that you can understand why that could be appealing, even though you may not be like that yourself?
Quite honestly, I have been waiting for a woman to be honest about this for some time. I reasoned simply that there must be some upside to an abusive relationship, otherwise the woman wouldn't do it. I often ask women "Why do some women stay with abusive men?". Very often they just say "I don't know", but I can see that they do, there is just no way they are telling me. But what about abused women? Do they even admit to themselves that they wish to be abused? Perhaps you know. Although of course, you may not even be a woman, I don't know.
Personally, I just think that in a twisted way, to see a man get incredibly emotional over you, even to the point where he may hit you because you are capable of generating such powerful emotions, must be an incredible ego buzz for a woman.
I really don't understand your "to each their own". Although i have suspected the twisted nature of most, if not all relationships, for some time, it still kinda appals me.Foxylaythee:: Women don't regard it as abuse unless it's really damaging and intense. If it were, I think they would not welcome it. We all have our limits. Know to the extent that I enjoy when a man plays rough with me, spanking and frightening me, but to a limit.
If you get off on the abuse, if you invite it and feel better afterwards, then it's more of a plus than a negative, so I rename abuse not-abuse. The problem women have is regulating the beating so as not to exceed some threshold, each woman is different, some don't like anything resembling a slap or pain, others like a severe beating, and the rest are in between. Guys can learn to appreciate getting hit too, such as in gay relationships, it happens you know! You can get all kinds of tools and toys to enhance the experience. But for me I'm more conservative, I guess because of my dad, who's strict but smart. I don't go for too much of that, unless it's for fun and no one is really angry.
Hywel: It's not really relevant to me what the name for it is, or even whether it is regarded as positive or not. I'm just interested in whether these women admit to themselves that this is how they wish to be treated.
It seems unlikely to me that they do admit it to themselves, since women seem to get very upset about being abused. If they did admit it, surely they would have a "I'm getting what I want, woo hoo!" attitude, rather than a "this is awful, but incidentally I don't want anything to change" attitude.Foxylaythee: How would you know what her attitude is, what she's really thinking and feeling? Many times I've complained about something when in actuality I was content for strategic reasons. It's better to have the man doubting sometimes, he is more inclined to try harder, to feel he's the source of the problem not me, when it comes to hitting we sometimes like roughing it up but want to keep it all in check, within limits, so we must sometimes suggest the limits of what we find comfortable have been exceeded, because the emotions are high and it's easy to loose control and over do it and we don't want to suffer anything permanent. Does that explain it better? Also since a man can never really understand a woman it would be a mistake to let him in on the full truth because he'll just misinterpret it and act improperly in the future which could result in exceeding limits again. Oh, there's also the business of wanting to make him feel he owes me, has wronged me and should try to make it up, and that I'm superior because of it. You have to remember women are working with a powerful, crazy animal and just like any wild animal it requires careful handling. The games are part of the handling and therefore necessary, even if ones motivation is not altogether selfish and self serving, manipulative. It's just plain necessary to treat men like the wild animals they are. To do otherwise would be very foolish. Can you see now why women are really wiser than guys? There are so many other examples.
David Quinn: Foxylaythee is simply voicing a dynamic that exists inside every woman. That she has become aware of it is quite interesting (probably the result of conversing with men about it), but as you say, this is immediately negated by the fact that she has no conscience over it.
She is particularly deluded about her ideas of the superiority of women. Being a clone of all other other women as part of the huge female Borg that controls the wildness of men is hardly something to crow about. The situation is reversed, in fact. It is very wildness of men which makes them far more interesting, creative and successful. When they can break free of the downward pull of women, the sky's the limit. This is far, far superior to being a lifeless non-entity within the female Borg.Foxylaythee: Fat chance! Your girlfriends and mothers won't tell you, but I'll tell you and you're welcome to hate me for it, men have virtually no chance of escape, even the men who appear to only do because the right girl hasn't come along yet.
If they could get their hands on the woman of their dreams they'd toss out their computer crutches, religion, beliefs, all of it just to keep her. Why do you suppose rich, handsome and straight men never become priests or gurus? Because they attract the most beautiful women. If they reject them it's just for show, or because they know another will come along, or because there's already one waiting in the wings, or because they have too much to loose with others watching, or because they're addicted to miss Most Downloadable and can't relate to a real live woman, or because they're experimenting with celibacy but it won't last long!
Our very happiness depends on men needing us. So don't hate us for that, it's Gods will.Anna: Foxylaythee doesn't talk like any woman I've every known.
David Quinn: That's interesting. She reminds me of virtually every woman I have ever known. Even the most wholesome and virtuous of women - not in a spiritual sense, but in the sense of resembling the Virgin Mary - are cunning and manipulative in the way that Foxy talks about. Foxy only makes it seem different because she brings it out into the open and baldly reveals it. She's not hiding it behind a smokescreen of feminine charms and simulated wholesomeness. But women are constantly manipulating men (and other women) nearly all the time. They can't help it. It's second-nature to them.